Yurii Tovarnytskyi of Aximon: 10 Failed Startups by 19 — Now He's Automating $1B Real Estate Deals 18VC Podcast · Episode 18 · August 4, 2026 Guests: Yurii Tovarnytskyi Source: https://www.18-vc.com/podcast/yurii-tovarnytskyi-aximon Host: Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to our audiences. It's a great pleasure today to have our guest, Yurii, here, and also we have a special host joining us, Jenny. And Yurii was the CEO and co-founder of Aximon, a company building the acquisition intelligence layer for commercial real estates. Thank you so much for joining us at the 18th episode of the 18VC podcast. I think it's a special episode for us, too. And Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Thank you guys for inviting. Yeah Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: I'm super excited to be here. Host: And for those who are unfamiliar with us, we are a student-run podcast featuring student founders, young founders, as well as some of the investors who's going to back these smartest and youngest minds. And thank you so much for joining us. Okay, so Yurii is a great founder who I met when I was sourcing deals for Marshall Venture Fund. So starting with his comment on my LinkedIn post, I got a chance to know a lot about him, including what he was building and his experience, ambitions, and mindset. And even though I talked to many founders afterwards, I still think that Yurii is very, very impressive, and he grows so fast. So I think Yurii has a lot of qualities that are worth learning from. So Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Thank you, Jenny. Thank you Host: yeah. So let's move into your story and the story of Aximon. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. Where I would start, oof, is there is a lot of stuff going on now. So we started Aximon with my co-founder when I was joining Antler. We started building AI in real estate. Our main goal was is building AI operating system, which helps with the full life cycle of the deal, starting from finding new deals, doing underwriting, and finding any investors which will give you a capital, so you can invest this money into the specific property. We realized and find this problem after doing a bunch of calls with different people. We identified the problem, and we tried to sell to them. Without having anything, we were just going to the call, selling those guys some random stuff, and they were, "Oh, yes. It sounds interesting." "Oh, no, it doesn't sound interesting." And just by doing this kind of conversations, we realized what works the best for us and where is the real problem where people are ready to pay. And we just started going more and more and more in-depth, learning more about the industry, and keep going from this moment. Host: Okay. So actually, you just turned 19 last week, but this is actually your third startup experience. So can you walk us through your experience before you joined Antler and Aximon? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yes. Actually, it's not my first startup. I believe back in Czech Republic, I already did probably seven different startups. All of them Host: Ooh, wow Yurii Tovarnytskyi: failed. I learned Host: Really? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: a lot. It was bad experience. I don't recommend to do that. But yeah, I was young, and I experiment a lot. I tried to do a lot of stuff with the sports, with soccer. I did a CRM for... Also, it was connected to commercial real estate, but it was more for managing property for dormitories. I also created a video marketplace, a lot of different applications, websites, applications, CRMs, AI solutions, and I learned a lot from this experience. The last, probably the biggest success was with Protege, which was edtech startup, which help you to learn coding better with AI. We have your personalized mentor, and it created a personalized course for you, different workshops, some lessons, and you could learn, check your errors. Actually, it was this idea I got into Antler by itself, but later, learning more about the edtech, I realized that the idea by itself is cool, people using this. I was able to reach 1K clients, customers. But just thinking more about the edtech and where it's all going, I realized that in the future, AI will eliminate most of the cognitive skills, and people will be less likely to learn anything. Plus it was what I created, personalized AI course, probably you heard about 10 different startups like this, just you personally. So that's why I decided to actually pivot it to commercial real estate. I was accepted with this idea to Antler. I meet my co-founder, and I pivot it from this standpoint. Host: Wow. Okay. So was there a personal experience or moment that shaped how you end up in startups rather than a big tech company? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. That's a good question. I always wanted My dream was always to work in Google Host: Okay Yurii Tovarnytskyi: when I was 14 years old. This is when I started to do coding. For me, it was super cool, big data. But I was always curious to learning more. I always wanted to learn more, and I was always challenging myself to go to the next level. At any point when I reached some level, I was... When I was almost reaching my goal I already hit higher goals. So I never actually reached my goals. Host: Okay. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: It's kind of funny, but I hit some milestones, of course. And a huge mindset shift was when I was working at 15 years old in this web agency. We were doing a bunch of different websites, custom solutions for different clients, and I just realized that I don't really love working for someone else. Frankly, just by... I was working with this guy. He was my mentor. He was a really nice person called Vitalik. And we were doing a bunch of this solution for different clients, and I realized that by working on someone else, I cannot really have this freedom and creativity, and create things as I want them to be. Not just by having Vitalik who telling me what I should do. It was He was, like, super chill, but actually the worst was, like, for our clients, right? We should decide, okay, we want to look We want to product look like this or like that. And most of the times, it was bad decisions. But me, as a like me as a person who giving them product, I couldn't just say, "Hey, I think this is a bad decision. We should change that." Most of the time you cannot really say that. You can give recommendations, but Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: end of the decision is there. So I just realized that if I want to fulfill my full potential and have the exponential growth in my career, building a startup is the best thing. Also, I was doing a bunch of different smaller projects, and I just realized that by creating a startup, it's the best way to actually change the society, humanity, to actually innovate and have this freedom, and you can do whatever you would like to do. And of course, if you want to do that, it should make money, and it should be useful for people. But just the freedom which you get by doing your own things was so exponential for me. That's why I kind of changed my dream, I would say. Host: Okay. So, I know you have a very crazy and packed schedule. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, yeah. Host: And yeah, you don't rest at all. So, I just want to know what a typical day looks like for you. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah, it's pretty straightforward. You wake up, you eat food, you go to the office... you go back to the... You work. So usually... Okay, a little bit slightly more details, right? So I wake up usually at 5:30. I go Host: Okay Yurii Tovarnytskyi: straight to the office. Sometimes in the morning, I do workout. If I don't do workout, I go to the office. Then from 7:00 to 10:00, I usually work like this schedule. And then I go back, I sleep, and repeat it. Probably for the last three years, it was schedule like this most of the time. Of course, I had different routines. Sometimes I prefer learning something new or reading during the morning. Sometimes when I join Antler, it was even more heavy because we had a bunch of clients, demos, and a bunch of stuff. With our product, we were always overselling what we have Host: Okay Yurii Tovarnytskyi: with the features. So we were always, "Oh, now we need to actually build this." So there's always work in advance for the next few weeks, for sure. But yeah, usually just wake up, work. I usually also love to go to hikes or just hang out some events. But it really depends. It really depends. Usually once, two times per month. Host: Okay. That's really crazy. So, how did you meet your co-founders, and at what point do you realize that he is the one that you want to work with? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, this case is a story, actually. So I was looking for a co-founder for a while when I was doing a tech startup. But I just couldn't find anyone that talented and that ambitious as I would like to see my co-founder. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: I had really high standard. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: And when I joined Antler, I had still the same issue. I don't have a co-founder. So I was trying to reach out to people on LinkedIn, doing a bunch of coffee chats. And then I remembered this one guy called Lucci which I met in previous accelerator. And friend of mine referred me. We tried to do a call, and I really loved his energy, so I decided to give it a shot and see what will happen. The reason why I loved his energy, because for me, he wasn't just a guy who know how to do stuff. You can find millions of these peoples. But just a mindset, and for me, this is probably one of the most important thing ever. His mindset was truly a winning mindset. He was athlete. He worked hard through all his way. He was running against Marines at 16 or 17. I don't know. It's crazy. He was running against Marines and won the third place. Man, how are you doing this? It's like just the level of his mindset and his public speaking skills, sales skills, what I realized later. That's what kind of bring me working with him more and more. So once I had the first conversation, I loved his vibe. We decided to do a trial, and we start doing a bunch of cold calls to different brokers, to different guys in commercial real estate, and I just see how he approach problems, how he think his decision-making, and I just love it. First of all, he has this mindset that he can always win, which was really important. He was always able to find the solution to the problem. So any problem, he wasn't looking into a problem as a problem. He was looking into a problem as a challenge which was kind of cool for me. And yeah, for me, I was trying to find a person who is totally different against me in terms of skill set who has a complementary skill set. So he had good sales, public speaking skills, and that's why essentially we start working together. Host: Okay. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: It was really cool, good experience, energy, good mindset. I would say mindset is really important when you're trying to looking co-founder. Because nowadays, with the age of AI, you can learn almost everything. Host: Yeah. It is. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: But mindset, really hard to change. Host: Yeah, I agree. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Personality, mindset. Host: Yeah. And I think the characters is the point that distinguish. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. It is true. Host: Definitely. And we want to move on a little bit to your startups. So, in plain English, can you share with our audience what is Aximon building and who is it for? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah, for sure. So Aximon is AI operating system for commercial real estate. We building this for different clients in commercial real estate. We starting with different small shops who basically buying different properties, acquisition shops, bigger teams. And the biggest challenge which they have, they getting a bunch of capital from investors, and they struggle to find good deals to deploy them. And at the end of the day, simply putting this, we helping them make more money by finding them good deals, whether by doing underwriting and helping them doing those deals faster, or finding off-market deals, or finding in more capital from the investors. Host: Yeah. And I assume there are several players in the commercial real estate industry. Can you walk around, share a little bit more about who are these different players? Who is buying them? Who is selling them, and what's the role? What's a more traditional way people are doing these transactions or deal sourcing process? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah, sure. So I'll probably start just by explaining how those people doing the work right now, then how we're trying to change this work, and about slight competition. So essentially, nowadays, they're doing everything in manual work with the Excel, and they're spending probably from 20 to 40 hours just to underwrite one deal. It really depends. Each company doing it in another way, but usually 20, 40 hours. The biggest challenge for them is just the amount of data which they're getting from brokers. Brokers sending them different pages, data rooms with hundreds of pages of documents, of PDFs, and now they just need to analyze all of this data. Then usually brokers doesn't have all the data, so they need to find. Good example will be zoning. They need to go find the website for specific county. After they found the website, they need to go to the website, read probably 20 different web pages, and only then they will be able to find the zoning, while we are able to do this in second. Right? So we're essentially trying to make this whole process of underwriting from 40 hours to five minutes. But underwriting just the one thing, right? Then you have finding off-market deals. How they find deals? Usually, they're just getting offers from brokers, but in the moment when they get the offer from broker, they need to give a percentage fee to this broker. And you think, "Well, okay, it's not a big deal." But they're giving them from $300,000 to $600,000. That's a lot of money, right? Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: You're just putting to table. So if you're able just to find those kind of deals, you're saving a lot of money per year for yourself, right? And with investors, usually they just using their network, and people who don't have networks, they struggle to raise money to deploy into capital. They just do a bunch of cold outreach, and essentially we're helping them also find qualified leads. Regarding the competition, there are a few players, like DealPath, Antler, but most of these companies and startups, they're trying to help them, but only whether with one small things or they're still doing really manually. For instance, there are startups who are helping them with underwriting specifically or with investors specifically. But those companies, they don't want to have 20 different software tools. They just want one system which helps them with everything, like operational system. Because switching cost is really high and the cost by the end of the day, if you're paying for five different softwares will be even higher than you're paying for one. So that's how we're trying to be different. We're trying to be all one-stop-shop solution for them. And also other companies who might be bigger and who are doing slightly more than just one functionality, they still really force those companies to do everything manually. They're not really proactive. They claim they're using AI to make everything autonomous but at the end of the day, you're still doing everything by hand. Just by in digital form and not Excel. So do you actually save them time or just claiming that you save them time and just giving them even more work? Because that's what's happening with most of these competitors. And we just realized that when we want try to be different essentially, we're trying to make it fully autonomous where they just do the main work, which is decision-making, their judgment. We just want to automate everything and make sure that they focus this 5% on only things which really, really, really matter. That's how we're trying to be different against our competition. Host: Okay. So can I add a little question? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. Host: So why is not other people doing this? Is it because it is really hard to incorporate into the workflow so they don't actually can automate it? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Why is it by itself not doing this? Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So essentially, you can do it by yourself and you can even create some code skills, and some of them even doing this. But the biggest challenge is that if you want to create this autonomous system accuracy it is one of the most important things ever here. Host: Okay. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: And a good example would be in their Excel files. It's really huge. It has 40,000 cells. Sometimes 200,000, 40,000, like really a lot of different cells. And just being able to calculate this is one thing, but being able to calculate it accurately is totally another. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So that's why they can do it, but when they're doing it, it's usually wrong. So which is going to them, and even when we're selling to them, we say, "Hey, guys, you're probably using some code skills, right?" And they, "Oh, yes, sometimes we do." "And it's probably not accurate." And they say, "Oh, yes, it's not accurate, so we stop using them." And we're like, "Here's solution," right? But one day, I believe Claude will be able to make it even more accurate, but that's why we're not trying to be just underwriting. We're trying to be We're trying to create more like the business partner, which will be proactive, which they can connect to iMessage, they can chat in the iMessage. They're going to the meetings, they ask, "Hey, can you create some IC memo for me?" Or, like, they can ask questions. Or for instance, with commercial real estate, there's so many different numbers which impact it, like economic, politics, some change of legislations. And being able to monitor everything is impossible. And sometimes it can really impact their business. They can lose a lot of money because of this. Host: Yeah, definitely. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: And that's why we're trying to be different, and Claude will not be able to do that. Claude will not be able to have the data to all their pipeline Host: No Yurii Tovarnytskyi: knows their DNA, and then tags them in iMessage and, "Hey, here's changes, and it can impact this property and you can lose a lot of money. I would give you these kind of recommendations." So that's what we kind of find out after six weeks of building this. Host: Okay. This way? Oh, that's my problem. I'll float this one. Okay. So, sorry. So what is the problem you're solving, and who's feeling it most accurately today? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. So as I mentioned, it's one-stop-shop acquisition teams who are investing into commercial real estate, and they're probably feeling this the most because it is usually a few guys team, like six to 10, and they're doing so much stuff. They need to find deals. They need to underwrite them. They need to find capital, then they need to monitor this, doing some asset management most of the time. Sometimes they delegate, sometimes not. But even if they delegate, they still need to monitor how it's going, and then always give the status to their investors. Then something changing with economy, they need to be able to adapt to this. So they have so much stuff to do, and their team is so small that they're just exploding with their work. By statistic, we recently did a research, and most of the acquisition teams expect 81% increase in their workflow. But they don't hire people because they're already spending 50% of their revenue on people. So this is a problem, right? The workload is increasing Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: but they're already spending 50% of their revenue now. If they hire more people, they don't have revenue at all. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So there's no business. So it's a big problem. They just have a bunch of work to do, and they most of the time, because they have a lot of work to do, they're losing a lot of good deals when a lot of brokers sending them inbound. 50% most of the time they just don't analyze. And sometimes they can miss a next Uber, a really, really good deal. It is one issue. Second issue, as I mentioned, finding capital. It usually, instead of taking a month, it can take even six months just for one property. And then they don't even thinking about off-market deals. They're just, "Okay." They just already accepted that they need to give 3% of their revenue to brokers. Host: Yeah. Okay. So, can you walk us through the magical moment when a broker find the deal in his email, and what happen in the next five minutes? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. So usually when broker sending this to the acquisition team and some analyst finds this in his inbox usually they just put it into some drive, their data room. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: And then they just go to the team and say, "Hey, guys, we have some new deals. Go and analyze this." And some people go and try to analyze this, spending 20, 30 hours, and then sometimes they spend 10 hours and they're, "Oh. Oh, my God, it's a bad deal for us." Host: It's a bad deal. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: But you need to pay them salary because Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: they work, right? And other times they can spend 30 hours and like, "Yes, it's a good deal. We can do it." So usually it's this kind of process. Once they underwrite the deal, they're like, "Hey, now we can send this to IC." So they go generate the huge PDF file. They send it to their investors. Investors take a look into this deal and like, "Yes, we love it. Let's invest." Usually that's how it happens. Host: So with your product, when the broker's email land in the analyst mailbox, are you taking the whole process, basically doing the analysis, doing the underwriting, drafting the IC memo, and basically the analyst can confidently show that memo to the committee and let's talk about if this is a good deal? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Exactly, yeah. So essentially, we just automate the whole process. You can simply connect your email, and once the email data room land in your inbox, we take this data room, we put to the pipeline. It go through all your underwriting. You can upload your files, documents, pro forma which you're using specific model. We'll be able to underwrite it and reach the model, and then show a lot of different statistics, different scenarios, economics, and generate IC memo. So the analytics spends now just whole time into just reviewing the IC memo, for instance or the key snapshots, the key numbers. Is it a good deal? Is it not a good deal? What kind of impacts offers this deal? And we're doing this in five minutes. And we essentially save analysts from 40 hours maybe to five hours or three hours. Essentially, the goal is just one hour and he can just look, "Hey, here's how much money I can make. Does it make sense for me?" "What kind of risk I have? Do I accept those risks?" Because you always have risk in the commercial real estate, right? Government change the interest rate next year and your property blow up Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: because you need to pay loan. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So the goal is just to automate this process, right? But except of this, it is just being able to calculate all these numbers which you will not be even able to calculate by yourself. Then there is an initial underwriting, as I mentioned. They can spend 10 hours and then realize it's a bad deal. But for us, it will be automatically Host: Screening. Filtered. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: It will screen and pull into we have the tab killed. And then if you want, you can always come back and see Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: why this deal was killed. But you just save a lot of hours for yourself. Host: Yeah. Okay, so you were keep mentioning how important it is to increase the accuracy of the number. So, I'm just curious, how do you actually make an LLM pipeline defensible enough for an investment committee? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So the issue with Claude is that it's trying to come up with numbers. Host: Hallucination. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Hallucination. Yeah. It's the biggest issue. We don't use AI at all for creating information. That's why we know that it's not hosting. At the end of the day, most of the stuff is extraction of data of the data room, putting into the right cells, and then it's all calculations. It's all math. So AI only doing extraction and then matching to the specific cells. That's why it never create new cells which means that you have 100% accuracy. We also, for our clients, we usually show on the top the source for the specific cell, so they can always verify and be confident, oh, this cell, this number coming from my own calculations or maybe from my own assumption. Sometimes it will show them, hey, it's coming from broker. Actually, broker is trying to create this rosy picture of this deal. We think it's not accurate. Here's the correct number. And they can always check this and come back, change the number, rerun the whole calculations if they want. Yeah. Host: Okay. So, you are doing B2B business, and credibility and trust are always the hardest part. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. Host: So, how do you get the interpersonal connection? I think the question we are trying to ask here is, real estate is kind of perceived as a very traditional industry Yeah where people make deals based on personal connections mostly, I think, in the old-fashioned way. For example, I know you, I know this guy. We're good buddies. We refer deals. Basically, this kind of a business, right? In our perception. But how do you break into... How do you try to build trust? Because you are basically saying, we can go away. We can skip the broker as the middleman. We can source the deals directly for you. But that is, again, why there's a broker, is because they are building the trust between the two parties. And how do you help to make that happen? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yes. This is really a good question. When we started, we just tried to reach out to people with cold approach, LinkedIn, emails, calls. And by this experience, we realized that for these people, as you mentioned, relationship and trust is the most important thing ever. So we tried a lot of different things. It was really, really hard. But at the end of the day, I really realized that if you can go to these calls with them and just show that you know their business that you're this expert, not just in the commercial real estate, but in technology, in tech. They will treat you as like a bro. As like a bro, a legit person, and they will give you some time. In the beginning, we just tried to reach out to them, say, "Hey, we're selling this kind of design partnership. Would you be open to do this?" Now we're trying to, "Hey, we know what problems you have. We know how we can solve this." "If you don't like it, we pay you back." Super easy sell and a super easy value proposition, right? And we realized that by just showing them and answering the questions which they have before they ask those questions Host: Whoa Yurii Tovarnytskyi: is the key. Because at this time they understand. Essentially, what I'm thinking here is that at the end of the day, they would buy your stuff if you can show and prove to them that there is a value. When you're doing a demo for them they always have different questions Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: and some reasons why they would not buy. If you are able to answer to all these questions with good confidence and even answer them before they ask, because the more you speak, the more you understand what kind of questions it is. They just don't have reasons to don't buy the system. But yeah, for us, in terms of outreach, really LinkedIn and emails work really well. We have this course at every... We have, like, 10, 15% response rate in LinkedIn. And it converts to the demos, which is great. And from calls, it's even better. We also tried to do what we call donor strategy, where we pretended to be a DoorDash or Uber Eats and go to those offices and try to sell them and convert into demo. So it wasn't that bad. We have some plans how to improve it. I would recommend it to at least try it. It was a lot of fun. But yeah, from our experience, when you just call them and you can prove in this few seconds that you can give them value, they will convert into the demo, and then in the demo, you should just answer to all these questions. You should just be able to answer to all these kind of questions which they probably have as why they would not buy your product. And if you are able to answer those questions and proves that it is valuable, they will probably buy it. Host: Okay. So, I think in real estate, they also prioritize data privacy. So how do you convince them that you can protect their data safety? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, yeah. Data privacy is a huge thing. But at the same time, it really depends on the company, right? Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So now our conversations, not a lot of companies actually care and ask us about SOC 2. Usually, it's, like, really big folks, like $2 billion in asset management, $3 billion plus. Smaller ones, like, between... Because usually now we target from $100 million to $1 billion. They don't really care. Host: Whoa. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: But of course, we always say that, "Hey, we don't train the data. We don't train model on your data." "All the data is encrypted." When we have the email... connection. We also don't see the email. It's all encrypted. Host: Okay. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Once it's in database, we also cannot really see and read it. Even once we got hacked, it is encrypted. No one can see it. So we just create this kind of trust. But yeah, for them, it's super important just to... These kind of questions which you should answer even before they ask as I mentioned example. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: They care about the data privacy, and they probably are skeptical about your product. So if you are able, during the demo, say, "Hey, actually, it's all encrypted. We don't train" Host: Okay Yurii Tovarnytskyi: "models on your data," they're, "Oh, shit. Okay." "That makes sense." Host: Do any of your customers ask for, for example, in-house deployment, basically local deployment on their own servers, maybe, like in their own office? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah, we had a conversation about that. It really depends now. Since we started six weeks ago, we're really open to this kind of partnership if we just use their AWS accounts or even like servers if they want. Because for us now, speed is the most important things, and if for customers it's non-negotiable, we will do it, but usually, of course, we're trying to make it on our side. Host: Okay. So, nowadays those LLM models are very advanced. I know nearly everyone sitting in the office, they use cloud to deal with their work nowadays. So I'm just curious, what part of your product features can a general agent do today? And if they become a really, really advanced one model, how could you defend your product? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah, I really love this question. It's probably what we thought for the most of the time. What will happen when cognitive intelligence become really obsolete, and you can just put it to the cloud and just return your error and what you essentially need? We realized it by only few things will survive in this era. And we decided to focus on two, the most important which we think it is data and it is relationship. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: What we believe is that at the end of the day, no matter how cognitive skills or AI will be good, people want to buy from people. Even now, you can create a website with cloud, but people still buying websites from agencies. Why does it happen? Well, because sometimes you don't even want to learn that. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Or sometimes even if you can do that, you want to hear the view of the professional how you can do it better how you can do it faster. So it is first, but also second is data. Essentially by having these customers, we can essentially have this kind of insight in the market and understand on the high level what's happening. And because we know and we have their data, we cannot, of course, change the model, but we can use this data in an anonymous way to help them, to help them, each other to be better at the end of the day. And this kind of data which you cannot really get and which cloud cannot really get, because we will have dozens of different clients scan dozens of different properties' LLMs. So definitely data, definitely this relationship, but also at the end of the day, we will try to focus more on the deal side. We'll try to be not just a software, because I believe software will be obsolete fully. We'll try to be more a service as a software. Where we, when they pay us, they only getting value, which means they pay us, and they're getting more money. Why you wouldn't pay to get more money, right? It's like, "Philip, give me $100 and tomorrow I will give you 200." Yes, of course you will do it. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: This is the same kind of relationship what we're trying to build with them. So even if the cloud can do most of the software parts, do underwriting, and even do some crazy stuff like find some off-market deals, but I'm not sure how accurate it will be, of course. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Providing this more as a service, I believe it will be the thing which will survive. Host: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that's why there are still many VCs out there trying to find the target company that's doing AI vertical application nowadays. Even though those clouds are so powerful, they're still doing this. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. I totally agree. Host: Yeah. Yeah. So how do you think about your data flywheel? What's the preparatory data you accumulated as you grow? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, this is a good question. So essentially, since we have a lot of different clients and they're using our software, we are able to saving all this data. Using the encrypted ways, we are able, with allowance of our clients, as I mentioned, use them to make everyone more powerful. So it is one thing. It is essentially data of our clients. Understand what kind of deals they look, which deals passed through the initial screening, to the underwriting, and then we can use this data to help brokers be better or just help them be more smarter, understand where people nowadays buying properties, where they invest, hot markets, some new opportunities for all of them. So it is one thing, data, and second, we also on top of Frontier model, we train our own model. Which is fine-tune open source model, and specifically for commercial real estate in dozens of different public available data, past deals, different scheduling filings. We scan our millions of governments, and not just governments, but different filing types of data which all of investors, all the partners who invest about the properties, do different areas, feelings. We are able to scrape all of this data and essentially train our model to be more powerful on top of the Frontier model. So that's how we create this kind of two-way judgment system, when they're able to argue with each other and at times they produce better result. Host: Are the foundation model you use are open source ones, or you using some of the other Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. Host: Closed source. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yes, open source. Host: Okay. Cool. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Open source, and we just fine-tune it. I can Host: Yeah, I think that kind of being more and more important because it's kind of more auditable in a way for open source ones because Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah, but we also considering to switch it. We're not sure if we'll Host: okay Yurii Tovarnytskyi: continue with open source, but now it producing really good results. But we are waiting to have whether some open source from a really powerful open source from USA company. Or just use Frontier fully and focus more on building the data structure data infrastructure, and building those relationship Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: with those companies. Because at the end of the day, it's the distribution and relationship will be not replaceable. Host: Yeah. That's definitely true. And we just moving back a little bit to the competitive positioning part. I think you do mention a little bit previously during the conversation, I think you mentioned some of the other guys are doing single features. They're not providing the one-stop shop. And is that the kind of part of the main differentiation you're having here? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah, so essentially most of the startups focused on one small piece. Other startups force them to use their own models. Important things here is that those companies use their Excel models for 10 years. They will never switch. So really, those startups just dying. They struggle to even have clients. Those customers who already have only one feature struggle to sell them because essentially they already have dozens of softwares and they don't want to buy new software. And this old legacy startups, which not startups, but more like companies, the legacy companies, which they're already using right now. How we're trying to be different is be more autonomous, be more as a business partner. We're trying to be not just a software. We're trying to be more like, hey, we're like your partner, and we refuse the lock for the long journey. And we want to try to help you make more money. If it doesn't give you more money, it doesn't help you in terms of saving times, making you more money, you can just remove us. That's our kind of thesis. Like, hey, if in the first month our product, what you call more like business partner, doesn't produce you more money, doesn't save you more time, we give you full refund. All money back. And that's how we're trying to be different. Not building a software, but building more of this system, which is always 24/7 and can help you notice things that you cannot notice, be faster, and be more accurate. Host: I think that's also a common kind of trend we are observing. Nowadays, people are not selling, as you said, softwares. They are selling results actually. People pay for the results instead of paying for a software subscription. I think maybe that's also part of the way you are doing that. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. I believe that software will be dead in two years fully. More and more companies started building software internally. Before it was impossible because it cost a lot. Host: Yeah, costs too much. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Now it is really easy with frontier models. And in the future, I think it will be even not just frontier models will be powerful, but I think they will come up with some harness where you can just download it, just will build some multiplayer harness, which you can do with your team, build some custom solutions, and you will not just pay for software at all. But only those companies who focus in on relationship distribution data, I think only they will survive. And of course, companies who produce service. Because if some company come to me and tell, "Hey, Yurii, if you give us 10K, I can give you 50K." "And if we will not give you 50K, you don't pay. We give you 10K back." I'll be like, "Yeah, sure." Who will not do this deal, right? Host: Yeah. That's true. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Those kind of companies will survive as well. And also physical AI will be huge. Host: Okay. So, last time we talked, you mentioned that you sell the product before you even start to build it. So I'm actually curious, how did you do that? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, yeah. It was so funny. It was really funny. So we found a bunch of phone numbers of executives from commercial real estate and just start calling them and try to sell the product. We have the hypothesis what we need to build, this kind of AI operating system. But we didn't know what it looks exactly. So we tried to sell them and see what kind of clicks and what not. And there were a few moments when the guys were, "Oh, yes, guys, I love to see demo." And then, "Oh, shit, now we need to build a demo." And we build a demo in one day, we send to them. Or like in other case, the guy's asking us, "Okay, guys, but do you really have a lot of experience in commercial real estate?" Yeah, sure. We breathe commercial real estate 10 hours every day. So we were trying just to create this fake it until you make it. But just selling them, or we understood what really makes them continue conversations, what encourages them to go and spend time for the call. Until one company was, "Yeah, guys, let's go for the demo." And then we trying to sell them in the demo, and they were like, "Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Let's do it." And we were like, "Yeah." And they asking us, "So when we can actually use the product?" We were like, "Yeah. Yeah. Give us some time. We need to set it up the system, your own workflows." And we just built really bad MVP in one week. We give them Did some iterations, improves the product drastically Get a good feedback, improving more, get a good feedback, improving more. Just a few iterations and the product become really good. Host: And Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So that's how we did it. Host: Yeah. That's really cool. And at this time, how many customers are you already having? Kind of. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: We have a lot of in the pipeline. Currently we have two. Host: Okay. Doing pilots? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So one is a contract and the Host: Oh Yurii Tovarnytskyi: other is pilot. Host: That's cool. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: With the contract, we're super excited. It can potentially convert into a bigger price hopefully. But with the contract, it's more like a pilot, I would say. Yeah. But we have a lot of it in the pipeline. We probably have just 250K Host: Oof Yurii Tovarnytskyi: in the pipeline. Host: That's crazy. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah, but now we're really trying to consider how we can convert everything what we have in the pipeline to actual Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: paid clients. Host: Yes. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: And most of the times we just realize that we need more cash to execute. That's how we're trying to approach now. We see, like, hey, we have a lot of clients in the pipeline. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Please help us convert. We need help right now to Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: convert them. We just want to move faster. But you cannot just tell them, "Hey, we need to move faster, so that's why we need money." But really, we need money to convert them, right? Essentially, at the end of the day. It's just execution of the speed. But yeah, it's kind of our approach right now. Host: That's cool. And basically, most of them come from your own outreaches, these customers? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. Cold calls works really well. We're just calling them, "Hey, Mike. How are you doing today?" And they're like... "Who is this?" And we're like, "Yeah. It's Frankie, it's cold call." And then we're just selling a bunch of stuff and see how they react. So sometimes they're kind of chill. It's even funny for them. And just getting some energy in the cold call. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Sometimes they're like, "Don't call me." And you're like, "Oh." "Okay, sure." So cold calls, emails, LinkedIn. Yeah. Cold outreach. Host: So are you now basically more on a basically case-by-case contract? For example, if you implement one system for one firm, you negotiate a certain price for the service, right? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. We really negotiate price. It's still so funny. We're still trying to figure it out. For some companies, when we tell them that we'll charge them like 1K, it was a lot. And for others, when we told them it will be like 10K, they're like, "Okay, sounds great." So it really depends on the size of the company. Also, in commercial real estate, sometimes it can be a huge company but they can just deploy all the capital and don't have money for the software right now. It actually would happen with this pilot. It's unicorn. They manage 1 billion assets but they don't have money. Host: Oh my God. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So we just did a smaller price for them. Host: Okay. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: But it's okay. If you help them and we surely will help them make more money, then we can be like, "Hey, now we can have money." Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: And who knows? So there are a lot of ways how we're planning to expand this, but yeah, mostly we really negotiate prices. We also were able to find two really incredible advisors. Since we have kind of experience in commercial real estate, of course, we didn't spend like three years there. So just having two guys, two advisors who helping us navigate the space, it really helps. Also, sometimes they're giving some warm intros which also helps even more. So yeah, having advisor is really important. Host: Okay. So, in terms of sales channel, so nowadays it's mostly cold calls. So let's say if you get some fundings and you really have to expand your business really quick, what will be your new sales channel? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Just doing more cold calls. No, but actually, I wouldn't say it before, but cold outreach works just perfect as a conversion rate. Can you imagine sending you text 10 people seven people, and it almost always converts into demo. Host: Wow. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: It's like really good conversion rate. The same with emails. Like my co-founder, Lucci, he was just able, with emails, get four companies into demos Host: Ooh Yurii Tovarnytskyi: just in one day from emails. It's crazy. But yeah, in the future, we're definitely trying to do some ads. Try to, of course, make it more automatically, so we don't really spend our resources we just pay, and you give us clients, we pay more. And you're just like, as a good example, you're paying 100, you're getting 200. Just like find some GTM. Finally, this will be crucial for us to grow. Now we're doing, of course, more manually, but yeah, ads will be really important. We'll put a lot of money into ads. We really even consider to do some social media organic. Commercial real estate space is really boring industry, but I love it, but in terms of how people treat it. So if we can make it more entertainment and those guys, analyst, execution, will be watching us in a good way, and they will be thinking, "Oh, we need to add more AI to our company." We will immediately click for them, and they will reach out. It will also may be good strategy, but we still don't know. We will experiment more. Host: Okay. So, for your customers, like in their companies, who is the decision makers, and where does the budgets come from, and how long is the deal cycle? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, yeah. Deal cycle's really bad. Guys Host: Okay Yurii Tovarnytskyi: if you want to be fast, don't go here. It's like really long. It's like all guys, all dudes trying to think, "Oh, should we invest into this or no?" It's hard. But it's possible. It should just be It should be really valuable. Easy value prop for them and they will move faster. But now what we realize it usually it is four calls on average, and usually it takes from the first initial meeting to the end, at least three weeks, three to probably eight weeks, I would say on average. But we started six weeks ago, so it's hard to tell, to be honest. But these kinds, which we had, we were able to get them fast, probably two weeks selling cycle, but on average in industry you have from two to six. But since we are a startup, we are able to get them, "Hey, if you'll do this this week, you will see we will give you some discount." Host: Okay. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Or something like that. They're like, "Oh, yeah. Hey, guys, let's go. We need to do this thing." You know? So you should give them something to move Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: faster. Yeah, sorry, what was the first question, except it was a selling cycle? Host: Like who is the decision-maker in their company? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, yeah. The decision makers it is usually director of acquisition team because they directly manage all the acquisitions. Or CEO or like founder. Host: Okay. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So if it's smaller team, usually it's CEO. If it's bigger team, it's director of acquisition. Sometimes it's principals can really impact. We always reach out to executives principals, directors of acquisition, founders CEOs. And yeah, usually they decide. Host: Okay. And one more follow on that is basically, we've been seeing two arguments, right? The first one is they're saying, you are getting this budget for purchasing your service from, for example, their initially software or IT part of budget. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. Host: And some others are saying that we are getting the budget from the hiring budgets initially. They are kind of, you're either just cutting more headcounts, and this money that comes out from this last hirings will be basically going to your pocket. How do you see these two different source of budgeting and which one are you targeting? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So we don't treat our company as a startup who eliminate acquisition team. We treat it as we giving you a tool, a business partner who can make you 100X more productive faster, better. This is how we treat it. So if you have team of 10, now you can have a team of 100 with us. If you have a team of 100, now with us you can have a team of 1,000. That's how we treat it. So they can now just make more money Host: Yeah Yurii Tovarnytskyi: and save time. But of course, if they want to now fire someone well, they can do it of course, but why you would do that if you can just always keep growing? Their intent is always grow and make more money. And there isn't a big reason to fire those people, I believe. But of course, we kind of automate most of the work. So it really depends. Now they can just do more deals. Or just analyze those deals faster. And for instance, as I mentioned, analyze instead of 50 deals per week 200. And even have better properties. If they have better properties, they make more money. So now they can even hire more. So essentially we're just kind of blowing them, blowing their economy, giving them more money. Host: Yeah. That's pretty awesome. And we want to move on a little bit to talking about the FDE things, because I think it's been a pretty popular topic nowadays, and it's been a new kind of... Maybe it's not new, but it's been a popular kind of business model. They're basically the forward deployed engineers. In one line, basically, companies will send their engineers to their client's place and do, from my understanding, customized software development, and system integration. So I think what you are doing is also kind of following this similar pattern, right? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. We exactly doing the same. We go to our clients and we customize whatever they want in the product. We're also able to provide them some custom solutions for extra cost if they want. And we're trying to build this relationship. That's why always addressing as more as a business partner not just a software company. And even in the future, we think that now it is easier because you have 10 engineers, but with AI, it can be a team of 100. So relatively, one engineer can handle up to 40 clients. Of course, you don't have every month 40 clients. You're just onboarding them and then it's like done, right? You do some custom solutions, and it's done. So I think in the future, this service piece partnership will be more and more custom for everyone. I think it'll be more and more trending. Host: I would like to dig a little bit more into this role, because it's been interesting. This kind of model wasn't possible until basically this wave of AI coding tools being so powerful recently. So what do you see for the FDE's top, I would say, abilities they need to have to be a capable FDEs? Because I think it's been something different. Do they need to understand the industry pretty good, and at the same time, also have a good skill set of doing software development to become a qualified good FDE who can take charge of the whole agent army and Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah Host: do the things? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: That's a good question. I feel like the best thing you can do is just hire a sales guy who knows a lot about the industry. Teach him a little bit how to code. Host: Oh. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: And that's all you need. Host: Okay. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Because at the end of the day, I think that for deployment engineers, understanding what their customers want and understanding the business is the most important thing. And nowadays with AI models, Frontier AI, it's being better and better and better. So, being able to code will not be a skill at all in my opinion. It will be more like orchestration. Of course, in the team, how we personally would structure it, of course, we will have guys who will go check, for instance, me as CTO or some other head of AI will go check if the code is correct verify something. But you can just create this kind of environment where the person who is coding can now make mistakes, right? So it will be easier and easier, and it will be more about, hey, what is your public speaking skills? How would you know about the industry? Can you actually understand what they want, get better pricing give them more value? So yeah, I think the key understanding is the industry and being able to public speaking skills will be really important. Host: Definitely. And talk about, I think maybe you already talked to some of these VC guys, and this industry was traditionally viewed as a kind of labor-intensive one if you don't have AIs, right? In the old days, where people, you need a huge team to basically outsource the software development, and at that time, I think it's not, in VCs eyes, a venture backable or a scalable enough business. But nowadays, from your conversations, do these VC investors see this kind of FDE, frontward development deploy engineer business model as a venture backable and scalable business now? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's like, yeah, you just told it. Yeah. I totally agree. In the past, it wasn't possible. Now with the age of AI, you can just have less people, and you're able to produce better results in bigger volume. So in the past, if you would try to do for every client this customization, it would take us months. Now we're able to do this in weeks. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So to handle, for instance, 30 clients every new month in the past you will need team of 50. Now you can have a team of 10 team of five even. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So it's relatively easier and easier because one engineer, it is team of 15, 15. In a good hands team of 100. So it's more than VC backable now. Yeah. Host: Okay. So, in the future, you are definitely going to hire more people for your team. So I'm curious, who do you not hire? Are there any personalities you see in someone that you think is a big red flag, even though he has a very perfect resume? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah. I would say there are a lot of guys who are really smart and are capable to do a lot of stuff when you give them good instructions. But what I'm trying to look the most when I hire someone, because they didn't have that much experience, so Host: Right Yurii Tovarnytskyi: but when I'm just trying to find even a teammate or a player Host: Okay Yurii Tovarnytskyi: it's like, can you do stuff by yourself? Should I micromanage you, or I can give you a task, and I will come back, and you will do a bunch of other tasks by yourself, and then you, "Oh, Yurii, we found a new task to do." And I, "Oh, shit, yeah, bro, I love you." You know? It's like... It's more about how well you are able to just execute by yourself in terms of exam mentality. It's not about even the skills, it's just like, hey, can you do stuff now? Is it good? Can you take action by yourself? Host: Okay. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So these kind of people are really important. Red flag it is when I give you a task, and you spend the whole week just on this task. Also speed, but just if you're able just to take action on yourself I believe is really important. Host: Okay. So, also, I know you pivoted a lot after you get into Antler. So, I'm very curious about your experience in Antler and SH1P, and how has Antler and SH1P actually helped you, and what did it fall short? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. SH1P was really mindset changing for myself in terms of understanding how to approach pitches, how to approach building stuff. Actually, the Antler guy from Texas went to the SH1P demo day. That's how I know him, that's why I texted him, that's why I got the intro to the first call which converted to the second call, and to the principal call, and that's how I got in. So essentially, SH1P directly impacted me being in Antler, being in SL, which is really huge. And by being in Antler, of course, first week, it was a lot of micro pivots. I wouldn't say it's pivots. It was more change of strategies, how we just Host: Okay Yurii Tovarnytskyi: by learning more and changing insights and beliefs which we had about the industry, and by speaking with people, killing those insights or being even more believable in those insights which we had. That's why it was a lot of different tweaks. And Antler was amazing. It is a good environment, probably it's the best environment to be. A lot of co-founders. We have weekly chats with associates, with principals, and just getting a feedback from those guys who saw dozens of startups, really incredible just having some support. Also, we have free office. Which is great. Who doesn't love free office, right? So just helping us. They're giving us mentorship and place to work, and the environment to be. Host: And we want to move on to a little bit more easier topics, talking about your personal life. So, how would you describe yourself in one word other than founders, builders, or entrepreneurs? What would it be, and then why? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: In one word? Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh my God, one word. Host: Or maybe a few words. It's fine. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Few are okay. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Few words, it sounds easier. Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: It's a good question. Let me think. I would say I would describe myself as energetic dreamer. Yes, probably. I know why, but yeah. I just think that in life, having some clear dreams or goal, and having energy to wake up every day, execute this dream and goal is probably the most important thing which you can have as a human. It kind of give you more drive to just execute stuff and create the plan how you can achieve it. So I think it was something important for me once I realized I was just actually, when I can have a plan and the goal, and I can do what I want, and I can do what I described in the plan. No, don't be lazy, go step by step, you can achieve almost everything in life. So I think it was really important and really cool when I realized this. Host: And I think we can also move on to looking forward to the future of Aximon. What would you see it look like maybe in six months or one year? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, in six months, one year. Yeah, so we planning to achieve one million ARR by the end of the year, it's for sure. Also, we are planning to expand the team. But in terms of Aximon, I believe that we will be at this, within next one year, I see us as bigger player in the industry, who already build out a bunch of connections, had approximately 30, 40 clients, have small team with A players, under 10, I would say. And probably work a lot. Host: And, just talking about your previous experience, you've been working in YC startups, and then later do your own startups. I know you've been also doing your own stuff at the same time, maybe. How would you suggest to other inspiring founders or students or young founders who want to go into this space, do you suggest them to join a company first or just do their own startup? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a good question. That's a good question. I don't know. Honestly, there isn't a good answer. I think it's really personal for each one. What I would say is that if you really want to build a unicorn, you need to have some kind of understanding how those guys did stuff before. You probably know a lot of successful people who just did something, and it just blew up. Like Mark Zuckerberg, right? Everyone know Mark Zuckerberg by Facebook. But not a lot of people knows that he built a bunch of different stuff before the Facebook. Social media, different social media, music players, apps, websites. So I believe having this kind of experience a little bit, it really can help. But also, I wouldn't be like, "Hey, I need to work in this startup, then work big tech, then get into YC, and only then I can start a startup." No. I would try to take action as fast as possible, but just also going and try to build something without zero experience doesn't really make sense for me. I would really try to work in one, two small startups, or even not even startups, but just even small two projects before you want to build something really great. And only then try to focus on some problems. And the best problems is usually when you're trying to solve your own problem. And then you realize, oh, actually, it can be applied to other friends which I know, to other people, and I can charge for that. So this is how I would start. Try to do some two, three projects or else work in one, two startups, and then try to build something by yourself. Host: Okay. So, are there any advices you want to give to other student founders or early-stage founders? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: So my advice would be probably if you want to be better than anyone else in your industry is focus is really important. Then trying to spread out on 10 different things and be really good in this one specific thing would be really key for me. And then you should always have some average middle skills on other things like public speaking, like some maybe... If you're doing social media, okay, nice. But if you spread out equally your attention, you will not be good at any place. So I would focus just on one thing and would polish it really well. And second thing is just try work harder than anyone else. A good example would be if you fighting against your competitor, like startup, let's say two startups. And in one startup, founders work six hours per week. In other, 120. Every week. Say two is better. But of course, a lot of people say, "Hey, just working hard will not really help." But you're not just trying to work hard, you're trying to work harder and smarter. Of course, working hard will not help you. But when you're really working harder and smarter, that's when this kind of combination create a Advantage for you which you cannot really cut at all. Because if you're working against someone, if you're competing against someone who's working twice as you, you just don't have resources, and you'll not be able at any point just to reach them. At the same time, when you start, you as a startup, the only one thing which you have is speed. It's like only your advantage. It's like there's no who is saying, like, "We have a moat as a startup." Until you're like Series A, you don't have a moat. No one has a moat. You're just thinking you will create a moat, but when you start, your only moat is the speed against all these legacy companies. So, I would just recommend work hard, find some niche, and focus on this. Host: Okay. So do you have advice for people, like how to work hard? Because I'm really curious, when you wake up at 5:00 every day, what's in your mind? Yurii Tovarnytskyi: In my mind? Host: Yeah. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Oh, actually waking up at 5:00 is probably the best thing I ever did. When you wake up at 5:00, your mind is so clear. You just think about nothing, like really. Host: Okay. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: You don't have thoughts at all. Normally, after lunch, I have a lot of thoughts here and there about life, about startups. I'm always in constant thinking. When you wake up in the morning at 5:00 until like 10:00, just don't think about anything. You just like do as a routine. You like really focus. But for me, it is more like about just energy. Hey, I have my dream and I want to achieve it fast super fast. And usually, I like set it up goals over. So, when I set it up the goals, I have like 50% success chance to achieve it, 50 and 50. And directly connected to how much I work. So, I understand if I put less hours here, I will not be able to reach this goal. So, for me, just like about, hey, I have these goals and these I'm super excited about them, and I just want to achieve them as fast as I possibly can. And it's like just drive me to wake up in the morning. Host: Okay. Because you want it so much. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I just want it so much, and I just love what I'm doing. Host: Okay. All right. Thank you so much. I think this wraps up our episode today. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Thank you, guys. Host: Thank you so much for joining us. Yurii Tovarnytskyi: Thank you.