Building Invisible AI with Bubbl Founder Tony Xiong: The AI Assistant With No App — It Just Texts You 18VC Podcast · Episode 7 · June 9, 2026 Guests: Tony Xiong Source: https://www.18-vc.com/podcast/bubbl-tony-xiong Host: Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, our audiences. And a huge welcome to our guest today, Tony Xing, the founder and CEO of Bubble, a company building a personalized AI messaging assistant that keeps track of what matters the most. Thank you so much for joining us today, Tony- Tony Xiong: Thank you Host: ... on the episode seven of our 18 VC podcast recording. For those of you who are new to this channel, we are a student-run podcast focusing on student founders, operators, and investors, betting on the youngest and smartest generations. And, fuck, shit. Just start over. Continue. We'll clip it. The hosts today will be me and Philip. Yeah. Hi, everybody. So let's move in your story and the story of Bubble a little bit. Walk us back a bit. What were you doing before you were building Bubble, and what lead you into the path of building Bubble? Tony Xiong: Yeah. First, I wanted to thank you all for inviting me to this thing. I'm super excited. This is the highlight of my career, so I'm very excited about this. But yeah. Before I was building Bubble, I was at Northwestern studying engineering design. So essentially, I was honing my skill as a product designer, trying to figure out better ways to understand how people behave on a day-to-day basis. What are they looking for? How do you build products that fit people's needs? And then Bubble actually came out as my thesis project. So I was focusing on the social dynamics in group chats, and how people are communicating- Host: Mm Tony Xiong: ... and how it's not very productive or efficient. And then obviously, it turned into what it is today. Host: Hmm. So you're actually a serial entrepreneur. You've built products prior to founding Bubble. What'd you take away from all those prior experiences of building other products that affected how you're building Bubble today? Tony Xiong: Yeah. So I started building when I was a kid, essentially. I built my first product or slash business when I was in middle school, so I was 15. Host: Middle school. Tony Xiong: And back then, I used to take a lot of photos and then do a lot of videos, uploading them on different social media platforms, and doing all of this essentially. And the one problem I had was I would sit there with all the footage and all the images, and it would take me hours to just transfer them onto my computer or onto my USB or whatever we're using back then, and that just really annoyed me. So I was like, "If we could somehow make that data transferring process faster, it would solve that problem for me." Right? So I essentially built a portable drive that could transfer one gigabyte of information per second, which was 10 times faster than what was existing on the market at the point. And then, so that was the first product I built. And then I learned that I was not only solving my own problem, but also solving for problems of people around me. Host: Hmm. For sure. Tony Xiong: So I started selling the prototype- Host: Yeah Tony Xiong: ... and then that's how I sort of got started in the startup world. And then obviously, after that, I've done a bunch of ventures. Most of them are short-term and pretty independent, like contract work- Host: Mm-hmm Tony Xiong: ... a one-off stuff. And then this is essentially the first one where it's venture backed- Host: Hmm Tony Xiong: ... and then we think since we're solving for a real problem and that it's a very widespread problem, we want to take it further, and that's what we're working on. Host: Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, definitely. So, is there a specific person, or experience that, or a moment that drive you into this founder path, which is not that a common choice for a general student at school, for example- Tony Xiong: Yeah Host: ... or even earlier. Tony Xiong: Yeah. Like I said, I've always been a builder and a tinkerer, so I would build random stuff just for fun. Right? But at some point around middle school, I already gave you one example- Host: Mm-hmm Tony Xiong: ... of that, where I discovered that I wasn't just building for fun, but also solving for problems, and that's when I really realized that there's a path forward. But let me give you another project that I was working on, and this time it was in high school. Right? So, I was building this... Have you seen those high-altitude balloon videos- Host: Mm-hmm Tony Xiong: ... where people would like send bread or send toys- Host: Yeah Tony Xiong: ... into the stratosphere? We thought it was interesting, right? Me and my friends were all engineers, so we're like, "Oh, we could totally pull this off." So we got a team of four people. It expanded into a team of 13 down the line- Host: Wow Tony Xiong: ... to build this thing where we would send these high-altitude capsules into 100,000 feet in the stratosphere just for fun. Right? But then we saw that Sony Electronics back then was trying to promote their sports camera. Host: Mm-hmm. Tony Xiong: And then we saw the opportunity and we're like, "Hey, how about we do a collab project together? You would sponsor everything and just send us some of your cameras, and in return, we'll send all of your equipment or your cameras into the stratosphere for footage, and then you could use that for marketing." And then this is never before seen, right? So we did that, and then it was really a huge success back then. It went on national news and all of that. So, that was also a huge moment where I realized that I'm not just building for the sake of building, but also I'm solving for a greater problem, and there's really an overlap between technology and business. Host: Yeah. So I think that the traditional corporate life wasn't actually in your mind at the beginning. Tony Xiong: Right. Also, I was in high school, so I wasn't- Host: Yeah. Tony Xiong: Wasn't eligible back then. Host: Yeah. Tony Xiong: But then, I guess- Host: You're- Tony Xiong: ... my path just sort of led to where I am today. Host: Yeah, sure. And, we want to ask, how did you actually meet your co-founder today? Tony Xiong: Yeah. So, we met at UCLA, so we were part of this computer science group chat. And then, I would always post about new ideas I'm coming up with, teams I'm building, and all of that. And then when I was working on Bubble, in its earliest iteration, I was like, "Hey, I'm exploring this idea. Would anyone be interested in it?" And then I just posted it, and then he responded, and we had a great chat. He didn't join from the get-go, but then we just kept talking, and then it worked out, and then right now we're pursuing this vision together, which is great. Host: When you meet, are you working on the same Bubble project, or is it different? Tony Xiong: No, it was essentially a completely different product. Host: Wow, okay. Tony Xiong: So, let me tell you a little bit about what we're working on right nowRight. So Bubble is an AI personal assistant that turns your message chaos into actions. Because right now work happens in messages- Host: Yes Tony Xiong: ... across Slack, Gmail, Discord, LinkedIn, whatever we use. Host: Yes. Tony Xiong: Right? And then it makes decisions very scattered all over the place, and sometimes we don't really know what to act based off of that, right? So we thought if a tool existed that takes all of your messages and have them automatically captured, sorted, and acted on, that'll solve that problem. So you don't have to spend hours every day flipping through hundreds of messages just to get to what matters. Host: That makes total sense. Tony Xiong: Right. Host: You're solving a real interesting question here. I'm curious, what personal experiences do you have with this problem space that first puts it on your radar? And at what moment did the process of tackling this problem moved from being purely interesting to something that you just couldn't walk away from? Tony Xiong: Yeah. So I've always wanted to think of myself as a busy and productive individual, so I'm always all over the place, and then sometimes it makes it hard for me to keep track of things. Host: Mm. Tony Xiong: Right? I remember it was probably the first day of my high school when I missed our school-wide meeting, right? So all the students were there except for me, right? So I would constantly miss different stuff, right? Meetings, commitments. And it's not because I'm not doing a good job managing things, it's just that there's so many things going on- Host: Mm-hmm Tony Xiong: ... in my life. Host: Yeah. Tony Xiong: I'm pretty sure in a lot of people's life, right, especially here in Silicon Valley- Host: Yes Tony Xiong: ... and SF, right? That it makes it impossible to keep track of what matters. So, that's where the idea really came from. And then initially, it was just something we were building for my thesis project, right? And then I remember when I was presenting it during our thesis presentation- Host: Mm-hmm Tony Xiong: ... it was just a demo at the point- Host: Yeah Tony Xiong: ... but I was like, "Hey, so this is what I'm trying to build, where I'm trying to capture your messages across these platforms and then so you could be more informed to make these decisions. If I were to build it, would you guys be interested?" Host: Mm-hmm. Tony Xiong: And I got, like, 20 sign-ups right there. I didn't even have- Host: Right there on the spot. Tony Xiong: Right. On the spot. And that was for a thesis presentation. It wasn't even- Host: Wow Tony Xiong: ... for a startup presentation. So that's when I realized there really is something behind this. Host: Wow. For people using Bubble for the first time, what first impression do you want to leave? Tony Xiong: Yeah. I wanted Bubble to be something that feels very invisible, but also very helpful. Host: Mm. Tony Xiong: Right? If you use Bubble now, and you'll see that unlike any traditional apps out there, there's no interface, there's no really setup. You don't have to install anything. You literally just text "Hi Bubble" to Bubble's number, and then that's how you get started. And then Bubble will ask you to pick whatever platforms you want to connect it to, and then from there, it will start sending you reminders, nudges, digests, so you're not missing anything important. So the entire experience is very light because we're already busy enough. We use enough apps, so we don't want to bombard your life with another app to download. Host: Yeah. So when people are overwhelming by messages, which part do you think that's most difficult to handle? Either it's because of the volume of the message, it's because there are so many decisions that they want to make, or there's any obligations that these messages are asking for, or it's something else. Are you doing something more than just reminding the people about- Tony Xiong: Yeah Host: ... the messages? Tony Xiong: That's actually a great point that you brought up because initially, our thesis was we're going to solve for the information overload problem, right? Because that was the obvious thing to do. But then as we talked to more people and did more research, we figured out that the real problem was never information overload, right? It's locating what's important and what to prioritize. That's what matters, right? You could be receiving 1,000 messages every day, but 900 of them might be irrelevant, and then you don't even want to look at them. So the important thing here, and what really brings people value, is picking out what matters across those 1,000 messages and sorting them into actionables so you don't have to spend the time and effort doing so yourself. Host: What are people doing today? What existing solution are they using to cope with the problem? Tony Xiong: Yeah. So right now, it's a mix of different things that people are trying. Host: Expressions. Tony Xiong: What most people are doing is essentially just brute-forcing it. They spend more time and more effort to get the job done, right? Which is doable. So you could flip through all your messages. You've seen a lot of email inbox zero guys, where they just check every single one of their emails. They go to every single one of their platforms, right? That's one thing people are doing, but it's really tiresome. You need to spend a lot of time and effort on it. Another thing people are doing, and this is for more technical people, is they will use something like OpenClaw- Host: Mm Tony Xiong: ... or some sort of automation tool- Host: Mm-hmm Tony Xiong: ... that has access to your system, and then you set it up, you wire up the automation, and then it does those things for you. But the problem is that you really need to know what's happening and how to set it up, and unfortunately, most people don't have the capacity to do that. Host: Being invisible seems like quite a big thing for you. Your LinkedIn profile says that you're building invisible AI, right? Tony Xiong: Yeah. Host: And then your company name happens to be Invisible- Tony Xiong: Yeah Host: ... if I remember correctly. And you have background in product design, so I want to ask a question about that. What does being invisible mean to you in terms of product design? Tony Xiong: Yeah, that's a great question. When I think about product design, I always think that the greatest products are products where you don't feel like they're interfering with your lifeRight. They just seamlessly integrate into your existing workflow. If you're using a product or if you're trying out- Host: Mm Tony Xiong: ... a UI for the first time, and you think that there's something wrong with it, or it doesn't fit into your existing workflow, chances are, it's not great design. Right? So I think great design should feel like something that just fits into your life seamlessly, and it does the work in the background, so it doesn't take you out of your workflow. Right? Which is particularly important to a productivity tool that we're building. Right? If using the product makes you less productive, then we're doing a terrible job at building a productivity tool. Right? But how do we make a product that doesn't interfere with your productivity? Right? And the best way to do that is to use something that people are already using. Right? Messages. People are already texting people. Right? So that it doesn't take people out of their existing workflow, and that's why I think- Host: Makes total sense. Tony Xiong: Yeah. Host: Yeah. So, as your site describes, Bubble is noticing what we are not noticing. For example- Tony Xiong: Yeah Host: ... maybe we notice someone who stopped responding to us, or if we have made a promise to follow on, but we kind of forget about that, or maybe there was a deadline that was approaching. How do you actually decide on which kind of message or which kind of task that should be more important, and you should kind of... Bubble should text the user? Yeah. Tony Xiong: Yeah. So there are a few things that we look at. But I would preface it by dividing it into two categories of feedback. The first one is given by the users, and the second one is through inference. So, with the first one, you could actually tell Bubble what things matter to you. Right? If you're a student that might be looking for job opportunities, internships, deadlines, papers, stuff like that. Right? And then if you're a professional, you're looking for clients, it might be CRM, client relationship, outbound, stuff like that. Right? So that's the first part of it, where you could explicitly just tell Bubble what you're looking for. And the second part is essentially understanding your personalized social context, so we could build a better image around who you are and what you care about. Right? So that comes down to who you're talking to, what's your messaging style, what do you like, what you don't like, what platforms do you use, a number of different things. Host: It actually sounds like Bubble can get to learn more and more about who I am and basically build out a digital twin of me. Tony Xiong: Yeah. Host: I'm wondering, what is the final ultimate version of Bubble look like, in your vision? And to get there, what are some, a couple milestones that you need to achieve? Tony Xiong: Yeah. So eventually, we want Bubble to be essentially an executive assistant that really understands you and can manage your entire workflow from end to end. Right. Obviously, right now we're starting with messages- Host: Mm Tony Xiong: ... because that's where a lot of the messy communication is happening. Right? But down the line, if you think about it, your work is not simply messages. Right? It's also- Host: No Tony Xiong: ... meetings, it's files, it's calls, it's all of those things. But the important thing here is really understanding what you need. Right? And that is why, and I'd love to go into this later, but that's why we're building what we call an action context engine to help us get a better understanding of what you need. And it's only when we have something like that can we confidently go into a lot of these other avenues so we could truly be helpful. And if you see a lot of the existing automation tools out there- Host: Mm-hmm Tony Xiong: ... I would say they have it entirely backwards. Right? They start with claiming to have 3,000 integrations, you could integrate it with all your apps, and then they just go out there and do all the automations for you. But then people don't use them because, guess what? They have no idea who you are and what you need. Right? So they draft and send messages that are complete nonsense. Host: Yeah. Tony Xiong: Right? But we don't want to do that. We want to focus on the understanding part of this first, before we go into the automating. Host: You want to actually provide a context layer- Tony Xiong: Exactly Host: ... for all the future AI applications or automations that people from your platform could use. Tony Xiong: Yeah. Host: Or is it like a general memory, actually? Tony Xiong: Right now, I wouldn't call it general memory because your memory covers a lot of things, right? And then not all those things are important to your work or to your productivity. So right now at least, we're focusing on information that are related to your day-to-day work. Host: Yeah, definitely. And after you kind of build up the understanding of the user, do you consider, for example, some more actionable actions? For example, can I just text, but when, can it just answer emails for me? Or can it just- Tony Xiong: Yeah. Host: Yeah. Tony Xiong: So that's the goal, and then that's what we're working towards. Right now we're focusing more on just organizing this information for you, telling you where things are coming from, if they're important, coming up with priority lists, sending you reminders, but once we get a better understanding of what you need, we're going to start adding in those automations. Host: That's super cool. And, you just mentioned about the action context engine. Tony Xiong: Yeah. Host: Can you talk a little bit more about that? Tony Xiong: Yeah. So, we decided to build our ACE, that's what Action Context Engine stands for, because we realized that existing LLMs don't do a good job at understanding what you need specifically for work. Right? It's very bad when it comes to your contextual learning. So we thought it'd be great if we could build something that takes into not just your personal context and your preferences, but also your relationships, who you're interacting with, how frequently you're interacting with them, who are they right in your life, and combining that with how you currently communicate. We could build a much fuller understanding of what's important to you, which fits into the product itself. Host: Yeah, I can kind of resonate with that because when we are doing our podcast, we would say, like, our audience is, for example, student founders or investors. So the message we would like to convey is more tailored to them, maybe Gen Z style message. So that definitely helps to understand who you are interacting with. Tony Xiong: Yeah, exactly. And, the cool thing about our Ace is that the more you use it, the better it gets, right? Because, what's important to you, and I guess your daily routine might look vastly different from mine, right? So, essentially we want to make it as personalized as possible. Host: Yeah, definitely. And that should be kind of the data flywheel. I'm not sure if that's the correct word, but it's been mentioned- Tony Xiong: Yeah Host: ... a lot. Tony Xiong: For sure. Host: And then, I think people will have a lot of concerns about if you access to their WhatsApp, their Gmails or their iMessages, do you actually store the message somewhere, or how do you manage that so that people don't have privacy concerns? Tony Xiong: Yeah. So we actually don't store any of our users' messages. What we do is we make a call to the API we're using. For example, for Google we're using their Auth. So whenever we're trying to send our users a digest or a nudge, we would make a call to grab those information from Google. They'll process it, and then we'll send that to the users. So actually nothing stays on our database. But we do store metadata, including who you are, who you're interacting with, how many messages you're sending and all of that, and that's for better customization. Host: Yeah, of course. And talking about this kind of product, for example, we have been seeing different startups are moving towards iMessage. I can give two names, which one was called Ditto. They're kind of doing the dating matching in your iMessages, also a similar interface. Tony Xiong: Yeah. Host: And the other one is called Photon. I think they also help to kind of connect AI agents to your iMessage or to a WhatsApp or whatever channel you use. And do you see them as competitors, or how do you differentiate yourself with the other guys who are also working on this kind of iMessage interface applications? Yeah. Tony Xiong: Yeah. So we actually don't even consider ourself as an iMessage product because that's only the interface of which we act on. We see ourself as a very lightweight productivity tool. It doesn't need to run on iMessage. It just needs to take what you have and sort them into actionables, so you could go about your day more confident and making better decisions. So that's how we see ourselves. A lot of these platforms you're mentioning, they are using iMessage as a medium, but then they do very different things from what we're doing. So at the end of the day, we're focusing on enhancing people's productivity. Host: Yeah. Tony Xiong: And that's for the product. Host: Yeah, definitely. And I see your long-term vision was like a super powerful personal assistant. Is that- Tony Xiong: Yeah Host: ... correct? And then would, for example, Apple be also wanting to tap into the area? Because they do have Siri, but I don't see if they and Orwell anywhere for now, but I think they may have to also have the vision. Tony Xiong: Yeah. Host: Yeah. Tony Xiong: Yeah, for sure. And I think one thing that we're doing that's really cool is how it's very cross-platform. So we're not only tapping into Apple's ecosystem, but we're also doing Microsoft's and Google's. We're connected to eight platforms already, and then we'll only expand from there. But in the long term, we're really trying to... If you look at a personal assistant as a product, the most important thing is building trust with the users. And how we could do that is starting out with our context engine, but also just by understanding what people are looking for, and then actually being helpful. And when people see that, they're going to really resonate and stick to our product, and our users will essentially become our moat down the line. That's what we're hoping for. Host: What was the moment when you validated the product market fit of Bubble? Tony Xiong: Yeah. Right now we're actually still in the process of looking for product market fit. But then we know for sure that this is a need that we're running into because every person we've talked to, all the beta tester, all of our clients are saying that they have this problem. And then right now it's a matter of figuring out what's the right iteration, what are the right features, and what are the right use cases to really get us there. Host: So since Bubble lives in text currently, what does retention look like? Tony Xiong: Yeah. Right now we're looking at a 47% day seven retention, which is pretty good for where we are. Host: And what are some signals that tells you that somebody's going to stick to using this? Tony Xiong: Yeah. So the most straightforward metric that we're measuring is how many messages people are sending Bubble every day. And then we're not even counting messages that Bubble is sending to the users because that will just add bias to all of these metrics. But over the past two months, our users have actually sent more than 60,000 messages to Bubble, and then right now, depending on what they were looking at, we're looking at an average of 10 messages per user sent to Bubble every day, which is very good, and then I can imagine that number will only go from here. Host: Do you think this form of SMS would provide better retention rate, versus, for example, like a standalone app? Tony Xiong: I think there are different ways to look at this. For a standard app, the barrier to entry is for sure higher, like you need to download it, you need to set it up, you need to go through the onboarding process. Host: Yes. Tony Xiong: But once you're done with all of that, chances are you might stick to it. But with messages, it's obviously lighter. Because you could get started essentially in less than five seconds- Host: Yes Tony Xiong: ... and then you just go about your life. So the key here is really keep bringing people value, throwing them things that will make them feel like this product is actually helpful, and that's how we could get retention in a different way. Host: Totally.Yeah, and go-to-market has been the topic that we also discussed- Tony Xiong: Yeah Host: ... the other day when we met. So is Bubble a direct-to-customer product for now, or do you see that there will be a team or a B2B version in the future? Tony Xiong: Yeah. In the future, we'll for sure do a B2B version. Right now, it's mostly consumer and prosumers. So we're targeting busy individuals, where missing messages means a lot to them. Right? So founders, operators, community managers, students looking for opportunities. Right? So we're targeting these people, but down the line, we'll also target the corporate side. Host: Do you have a roadmap or idea how would that to C product transfer into also selling to business? Tony Xiong: Yeah. Because our focus right now is understanding what each individual needs, what's within their context, who they're contacting with. Right? And then those are exactly the same things that a lot of companies are looking for. Let's say your company is selling a service to a specific group of clients, right? Then you have this context and you have all these messages and emails between your organization and all of your clients, right? And then a lot of back and forth goes into all of this, right? So it's essentially the same solution that we're providing, but maybe with higher levels of integrations. Maybe we could think about sharing company-wide databases or creating company-to-client channels that are specific to B2B use cases. Host: I can see that, for example, these communication apps, Slack, they have an enterprise version. Something could- Tony Xiong: Yeah, exactly Host: ... perform that type of- Tony Xiong: So Slack, Notion, Figma, essentially those types of models. Host: Yeah. So, how's your GTM strategy now? And we do remember talking about ABG CMOs. Tony Xiong: Yeah. Host: And is there something surprising that you found during the process? Tony Xiong: Yeah, so right now we're doing three things to push our product to the market. First one is direct sales and direct outreach, so essentially, I'll be reaching out to a lot of people, onboarding them, doing a lot of calls and outreach and stuff like that. Right now, almost all of our beta testers come from this avenue. We have around 260 people testing it with us. And then the second one we are doing is content strategy. So posting on social media, doing SEO, running ads. Those will all be a part of that category. And the third one is product-led marketing. Host: Mm. Tony Xiong: So word of mouth. Host: Mm. Tony Xiong: Because our product is so light, and also you can see the value so easily, it makes a network effect extremely easy. So right now, we're focusing on mostly the first two categories. Host: Mm. Tony Xiong: But as our product grows and we gain more traction, I think it'll actually be the other way around. So we'll be getting a lot of our users from the word of mouth effect. Host: Oh, so there was-- Actually, we talked to... I'm not sure if it's you mentioning that or some other guys mentioning that there are basically three pillars within the go-to-market of growth. Basically, the community-driven, as you mentioned, the other is product-driven, and third one is marketing-driven perhaps. And do you see that there was a hype about ABG CMOs or whatever? Do you think it's a hype, or is there a really need, or do they really bring in new customers from these CMOs there? Yeah. Tony Xiong: I think there is some validity to what people are doing when it comes to viral marketing. But I think the point behind viral distribution is not to reach as many people as possible, which is something that a lot of people get wrong, I think. That the point here is making these people understand your product value so they stay. Right? One mistake that we made early on was we did a lot of these on-campus campaigns. We would set up tables. You helped us with one of those campaigns. And we would get hundreds of people signing up to our product in a day, which is very good traction, but they never come back because they were never there for the product in the first place. Right? So obviously you could do a lot of content with different influencers and like you said, ABGs and all of that stuff. But at the end of the day, you need to stress how this product is important and how it actually helps people solve their problems. Host: You described yourself an introvert. Why? Tony Xiong: Because I am an introvert. Host: Really? Tony Xiong: I am an introvert. Growing up, I've always been shy, and just... Yeah, but I think what's the cool thing about being an introvert is that you're in the background most of the time, right? So you're listening, you're observing. And from that, you're actually getting a lot of insights that maybe a lot of extroverts are not getting. Host: Mm. Tony Xiong: Because what are extroverts doing? They're talking to a bunch of people. Host: Mm. Tony Xiong: They're presenting, right? But you don't learn anything by talking yourself. You learn everything- Host: By hearing Tony Xiong: ... by listening. Host: Mm. Tony Xiong: Exactly. And that's what we're doing, and that's what Bubble is as well, right? It is doing a lot of listening and observing and understanding, so it could strike at the right time. Host: Wow, that's a new angle. Tony Xiong: Exactly. Host: So Bubble is doing the work of an introvert, actually. Tony Xiong: Right. Host: Despite that it's being marketed as for communication, for coordination purposes. Tony Xiong: Yeah. If you think about what Bubble is, it's essentially an introvert, right, that's in the background- Host: Wow Tony Xiong: ... that understands what you care about. So when you actually need it to do things, it will actually get things done for you. Unlike a lot of these extrovert automation tools out there that just connects to all of your apps, gets into your system- Host: Right Tony Xiong: ... doesn't do shit. Host: True. Tony Xiong: Right? Host: True. Well, sometimes we know that sometimes being a founder requires you to step out of your comfort zone and be a little bit less introvert. What are some founder things that still feel a little bit unnatural to you these days? Tony Xiong: The networking part- Host: Networking part Tony Xiong: ... for sure. Like I said, I'm very shy, so I get nervous when I talk to people. But being a founder, you need to do a lot of field work. Going to a lot of events, having partnerships, talking to different people, and that's been a challenge. But if this is something we're going after, that's just a part of what we have to do. Host: Right. Well, maybe we could start thinking about how to solve the challenge of-- how to solve the problem of networking using Bubble. Is there any possibility? Tony Xiong: Yeah. Maybe that's a feature we'll add as ... Host: Right Tony Xiong: ... as something to help people with their networking. Host: Yeah. So are you actively looking to hire new people in the team? Tony Xiong: Right now, we're not actively looking because we think talent is very hard to come by. But then when we do find the right candidate, we would for sure want them to be a part of our team. Host: Do you have a rough picture of what kind of people you don't want to hire? Tony Xiong: People who can't really take responsibility. Host: Mm. Tony Xiong: I think that matters a lot to me. Because working in a fast-paced environment like a startup, sometimes you just need to do things first before you really have a lot of time to think about them. Right? So if you can't really take the responsibility, if you can't take a task or a project from end to end, then that'd be very bad. Host: Right. Tony Xiong: A lot of people out there are very talented when it comes to getting things done. Host: Yeah. Tony Xiong: But we're not looking at people who could get things done because we tell them to. We're looking at people who could get things done because they get things done. Host: Because they want to. Tony Xiong: Right. Host: Because they volunteer to. Tony Xiong: Right. Because they could just go out there and make things happen. Host: They just have the ick of if they don't do it. Tony Xiong: Right. And that's who we're looking for. Host: How would you describe the culture of Bubble? Tony Xiong: We are a very people-first company. That's how I would describe it. Because my background's in user experience. So I always care about how do we make the best product and experience for the people. And then I think my co-founder, Zach, and my CMO, Vani, shares that same sentiment. So we always start with the people, what do they care about? How do we best serve them? And then we go from there. And I think it is a great company culture, because we're all people. Host: Yes. Tony Xiong: Right? Host: Yes. Tony Xiong: So it's never about the product, it's never about the technology. Host: Yes. Tony Xiong: It's about us and who we are. Host: Being a founder is extremely difficult process. And you actually need to make decisions, a lot of decisions every day. I'm curious, have you made any terrible decisions as a CEO, as a founder recently? Tony Xiong: Um... Host: What's the outcome of that? Tony Xiong: I don't think I've made-- At least I can't think of any terrible decisions that I've made recently. But I think when it comes to making bad decisions, my take is you would want to make decisions that are less important very quickly, and spend more time on making decisions that are actually important. Host: That are important. Tony Xiong: Right. So, if it's about pushing out a feature or doing a marketing campaign, shooting a video, those things are reversible. Right? So you have the leverage to just do them, and if they fail, they fail. Host: Sure. Tony Xiong: Those are great lessons. But when it comes to, let's say, taking investments, forming companies- Host: Mm Tony Xiong: ... landing clients- Host: Mm Tony Xiong: ... those more important decisions, you want to be more deliberate when it comes to the decision-making process. Host: Great said. Well said. And is there any message that you wish you have replied in time, but maybe you didn't? It kind of anchors back to the motivation- Tony Xiong: Yeah Host: ... of founding Bubble. Tony Xiong: So, here's the interesting thing that I've realized, is that a lot of the times, the messages you missed, you never realized them until it's- Host: Many months, years later? Tony Xiong: Right. Let me give you an example. If it's your coworker or a client you're talking to- Host: Yes Tony Xiong: ... who's messaging you. Host: Yes. Tony Xiong: And then you miss that initial message. The worst thing that could happen is they do a follow-up in two or three days. Host: Right. Tony Xiong: Then you still catch it. But what's really bad is, let's say, an investor reaches out to you for the first time. And they're really interested in your product, and they want to invest. So this is the first-ever email you're getting, and you miss that. And guess what? You don't even realize that you missed it. And chances are you're never going to realize it. So one big use case that we're focusing on is actually picking out these things that you might typically miss, and that'll cost you a lot, and then surfacing them, so you don't regret it later. Host: Interesting. How do you evaluate in a quantitative way if some of these messages are more important than the other? I think it's circling back a little bit, but- Tony Xiong: Yeah Host: ... do you have a quantitative measure of that, or is it- Tony Xiong: There are a few quantitative metrics that go into it. For example, how often you're messaging different people, how many messages you're sending out, who are you interacting with, and stuff like that. But a lot of it is also qualitative. Host: Mm-hmm. Tony Xiong: What do you care about? Who do you care about? If you're a startup founder, chances are you care about fundraising, you care about clients, you care about internal communication. If you're a student, chances are you don't care about any of those things. Right? So, it's also qualitative as well. So it's a combination of both. Host: Okay, cool. If you use one word to describe yourself outside of founder, what would the word be? Tony Xiong: That's a great question. I wanted to say introverted, but then I think- Host: Well, I guess the reason why we ask the question, because we're in SF right now- Tony Xiong: Right Host: ... around the Bay Area, and a lot of founders that we know don't have a life outside of building. Tony Xiong: Yeah. Host: Which I have high respect owing to them. I'm just curious, do you have a life outside of building? Tony Xiong: I do have a life outside of building. Not a lot of life, but some life. But then let me go back to your question. I think I would consider myself as a problem solver. So I always enjoyed solving for problems, my problems, other people's problems, and oftentimes through building products and design. That's what I really enjoy, and that's what I do. And going back to your question, I actually watch a lot of YouTube. Host: YouTube? Tony Xiong: Yes. That is probably my number one hobby. I also play badminton. Host: You play badminton? Yeah. Tony Xiong: That's my number two hobby. But then the reason why I like YouTube is because it's a great source of information. You get to understand the world better. You get to see what other people are doing, what's going on, what's trending, new technology, new entertainment, sports stuff. And then as an introvert, as someone who stays home a lot, that's probably the best way for me to get a lot of those information. I really enjoy that. Host: I think the last question will be about the younger self of you. What was your dream when you was a child? Tony Xiong: I wanted to be... Well, it's not even a real occupation. I wanted to be a so-called innovator. So I just wanted to make things and build things, and that's where I get a lot of my joy from, is seeing my ideas come to life. That's what I care about. And then obviously, the more I build, the more I found that I'm also solving for bigger problems. So I think that's why I'm doing what I'm doing right now, and I love every second of it. Host: Is there any part of the current you, of what you're doing, would be least surprised by the younger self? Tony Xiong: I would be surprised about how much I'm talking to people right now, especially going to events. I'm even hosting a couple of events, doing a lot of community work. My younger self would probably never imagine doing something like this. Host: Great. This is a huge honor for us to have you here then. Tony Xiong: Yeah. Thank you so much. Host: Thank you so much. Tony Xiong: It's an honor for me. Host: This will wrap up our conversation today. Tony Xiong: It's a pleasure, yeah, coming here. Host: Thank you so much. Tony Xiong: Thank you. Host: Fellows, stay tuned for our next updates.